Abarth Cars => Abarth 500 => Topic started by: Elmo2002 on May 05, 2020, 06:05:47 pm
Title: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: Elmo2002 on May 05, 2020, 06:05:47 pm
Hi all, not sure if this is the right section to post in but I thought it would be a start. I have a 2012 abarth 500 that has just developed an interesting feature. After a period of engine braking when you just start to accelerate again it throws a plume of bluish smoke out of the exhaust. I initially thought this may be the pcv system so have taken a look and all seems to be fine. I have checked the boost pipes up to the inlet manifold and there is no sign of oil in them. I have taken the plugs out and they seem perfect even just after the event so don't think I am getting blow by from the rings or the valve steam seals (also no blue smoke on start up after being left for days). Does anyone have any other suggestions or have experienced similar? I will try and post a video that I managed to catch of it
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: 124Abarthreplica on May 05, 2020, 06:16:17 pm
Hi and welcome to the forum :thumb:
Oil level too high?
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: Elmo2002 on May 05, 2020, 06:55:01 pm
Hi, no it's quite near the bottom of the dipstick. I have just removed all of the pcv system, blanked off and taken for a drive and it's still the same
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: Elmo2002 on May 05, 2020, 07:30:59 pm
Have also noticed that in sport mode it's only making just over 0.8bar boost, 1 bar at max I'd say
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: Elmo2002 on May 05, 2020, 08:13:43 pm
Have you looked inside the pipe from airbox to turbo? The 60mmish diameter hose, could be start of turbo seals expiring if excessively oily in there.
All of the intake pipes are clean. Could it be a turbo seal starting to go allowing oil to leak straight into the exhaust? I would say there is around 2mm of end float movement on the turbo shaft
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: Elmo2002 on May 05, 2020, 10:29:50 pm
Managed to upload a video. It is normally worse then this but best I could do. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kjr7WBhfrjw&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: shadyracer on May 06, 2020, 07:25:33 pm
Doesnt look good, next id check intercooler to see how oily , possible seals are going, endfloat can be same on good working turbo unit, id also check compressions to assert facts before replacing anything. Good luck
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: Elmo2002 on May 07, 2020, 08:33:26 am
Doesnt look good, next id check intercooler to see how oily , possible seals are going, endfloat can be same on good working turbo unit, id also check compressions to assert facts before replacing anything. Good luck
Have taken off IC pipes and there is no sign of and oil what so ever.
However last night I engine braked to a set of traffic lights, had a pause of around 30 seconds wilt they were red. Then on pulling away had the cloud out the back. If it were rings or stem seals would the oil sit for that long until the revs came up?
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: shadyracer on May 07, 2020, 12:05:57 pm
Id say yes, I had a non turbo subaru legacy did exactly same as you described when sitting idling in traffic, it had worn piston rings but had near 200k on clock. Id do cylinder compression test next.
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: Elmo2002 on May 07, 2020, 12:33:00 pm
Getting a compression test done later. I seriously hope it's not rings as the car on has 52k on the clock
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: Elmo2002 on May 07, 2020, 08:41:47 pm
Id say yes, I had a non turbo subaru legacy did exactly same as you described when sitting idling in traffic, it had worn piston rings but had near 200k on clock. Id do cylinder compression test next.
Compression test carried out, 3 time on each cylinder cranking for around 8secs. Results were 190psi across the board within 2psi
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: StephenABC on May 07, 2020, 08:55:33 pm
I had a zafira gsi,. My other problem turned out to be stem seals.
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: Elmo2002 on May 07, 2020, 09:22:33 pm
I had a zafira gsi,. My other problem turned out to be stem seals.
Did it smoke on start up at all? As been told by a couple of local garages that this would be a sign.
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: shadyracer on May 08, 2020, 02:58:52 am
Good compression readings, does suggest valve stem seals, you could try a seal conditioner oil additive to soften the seals, not sure but might help, forte branded products are favoured by the motor trade around me. How much oil does it use monthly? More than a litre? Does it sit in traffic idling often?
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: Elmo2002 on May 08, 2020, 07:02:06 am
I may try the additive then and see what happens. I have a 40mile commute to work mainly A roads and motorway. The only time it's sat in traffic is on the way home for around 10 to 15 mins, but that's still moving just slowly.
Would the stem seals not cause it to smoke on start up or after long periods of idling? I carried out an oil change 8 weeks ago and it has dropped from halfway on the dip stick to just above the minimum.
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: 124Abarthreplica on May 08, 2020, 09:18:04 am
Just out of interest, what oil did you use?
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: Elmo2002 on May 08, 2020, 09:41:10 am
I used Selenia Abarth branded 10w50. From what I could see that was the right one for the car
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: TBliss on May 08, 2020, 06:22:38 pm
Sounds like the turbine seal is slowly leaking which would cause your issues. Pull the housing and look for oil.
Tim.
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: Elmo2002 on May 19, 2020, 08:31:42 am
So a little update, I have driven around 250 - 300 miles with Forte seal conditioner in and it has not made any difference. I have also been carrying out a few other tests.
These are, Cold start after the car being sat for 5 days. No smoke on start up Long period of idle ~ 20 min from cold, then driven off. No smoke Long period of idle ~ 20 min after 1hr drive then drive off. No smoke Engine brake down long hill in 3rd, 4th, 5th gears drive after. Large plume of bluey white smoke that lingers and smells of burnt oil Coast down same hill with clutch in then drive after. No smoke
Does this still sound like turbo oil seal?
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: 124Abarthreplica on May 19, 2020, 09:32:28 am
I think you will have to remove the cylinder head to check valve stem clearance and fit new stem seals. :(
Wise to get it crack tested whilst its off :thumb:
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: shadyracer on May 19, 2020, 01:43:43 pm
Now Im not so sure its stem seals. I need to ask, has this only occurred since oil and filter change? Reason I ask is because if you drained oil sump but refitted sump plug before changing oil filter, then theres a possibility that the remaining oil in filter housing hasnt drained to sump and might lead to overfill, which would then possibly cause excess pressure on oil seals. Can you tell me part number of replacement oil filter you used and do you remember how many o rings you changed?
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: shadyracer on May 19, 2020, 08:57:32 pm
Thinking more likely turbo on way as symptoms show only with turbo spooled up.
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: Elmo2002 on May 20, 2020, 09:13:10 am
Now Im not so sure its stem seals. I need to ask, has this only occurred since oil and filter change? Reason I ask is because if you drained oil sump but refitted sump plug before changing oil filter, then theres a possibility that the remaining oil in filter housing hasnt drained to sump and might lead to overfill, which would then possibly cause excess pressure on oil seals. Can you tell me part number of replacement oil filter you used and do you remember how many o rings you changed?
To be honest I never noticed it before the oil / filter change, but then I wasn't really looking for it. Also I can't remember if the drain plug was out when I changed the filter. However I don't think that it is overfill as the oil is around 1/3 up the dip stick. I have no idea what the part number was sorry and pretty sure it was only 1 o ring that I changed. Is there more??
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: Elmo2002 on May 20, 2020, 09:16:05 am
How likely is it to be either of the stem seals or the turbo? My only problem is that they are both very big money items and if I get it wrong I don't have the money to do both :( :-\
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: 124Abarthreplica on May 20, 2020, 12:17:34 pm
One other thing, has the dip stick been changed?
I know it has not but measure yours and I'll measure mine :whistle:
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: android_808 on May 20, 2020, 02:36:29 pm
Whilst your measuring, perhaps you could also let me know what colour handle you have on your dipstick.
All my other Abarths have had either red or yellow from memory but my '69 Esseesse has baby blue. It matches absolutely nothing. I don't know if thats why they've done it or if its just wrong but surrounded by yellow oil cap, red engine covers, black plastic etc, its just odd.
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: 124Abarthreplica on May 20, 2020, 03:01:32 pm
Red handle
52cm from base end to flange that stops the stick at the top
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: Elmo2002 on May 20, 2020, 04:18:30 pm
I can confirm that mine is also red and 52cm from bottom to the collar same as yours.
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: android_808 on May 20, 2020, 05:50:22 pm
I'll see what they can do when I have it serviced.
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: Elmo2002 on May 21, 2020, 06:24:17 am
So on a short drive last night after coming down a hill and engine braking I turned into a side road and started to slowly accelerate just as the car was coming on to boost big cloud of smoke again and the check engine light has now come on. I am yet to read the fault code as need to buy a reader.
But two things, I have been thinking about the question was this happening before the oil change and that got me thinking as to what happened at the oil change. A couple of things have sprung to mind, I used liqui moly engine flush prior to oil change, coolent change and the cam belt was changed. Now I can't see the belt causing any of the issue, BUT would the engine flush ruin the turbo seal?
Also 2 weeks ago I made sure the coolant was at max, now it is around 5mm lower in the expansion bottle. Not sure if any has been used or has just settled.
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: 124Abarthreplica on May 21, 2020, 09:25:29 am
Try this for fault codes
https://www.multiecuscan.net/
The smoke may now causing a problem in itself with the lambda sensors and exhaust catalyst. :thumbd:
Maybe investigate the 'liqui moly engine flush' further, although if damage has occurred then you still need to replace the seals anyway.
Title: Re: Smoking after engine braking
Post by: Elmo2002 on May 21, 2020, 03:13:18 pm
So the fault code has just turned out to be P0420 Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1). Seems to have been generated by the cloud of smoke interfering with the lamba sensor. A local garage has told me it sounds highly likely it is the turbo. So think I g going to have to cross fingers that it is and order one up.
I have looked through the net and can't seem to find anyone that has had any great problems with liqui moly engine flush. Although the garage told me most engine flushes are quite harsh so that could of added to it and the only brand he would ever consider using is Forte.