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Author Topic: Money No Object Tuning  (Read 4662 times)

Offline Simon-bp

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Re: Money No Object Tuning
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2014, 06:28:21 am »
If I had won the lottery I would be interested in spending some of it on my APE as in this case it wouldn't be used for day to day transport.
First I would want to source a decent 'box. I have seen on You tube that G-tech had a sequential box in a 500 which looked interesting. Or I would try obtaining the dog box in the new 595 Biposto. Then it would be fun to spend big on all the exciting bits.
But it is only a 1.4 and all the cars I've seen it compared to here and in magazine reviews have been 1.6 turbo or 2.0 litre and always more expensive. The only other 1.4 turbo I can think of, other than the 500, is the Mitsubishi Colt Ralliart which I think was a bit cheaper but in my opinion no comparison to our wonderful APEs!
Sorry I forgot the obvious ones! The MiTo and the VAG offerings! If it isn't getting too far off topic, none of which I would swap for my APE.

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    Offline FullMetalScorpion

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    Re: Money No Object Tuning
    « Reply #16 on: April 13, 2014, 07:46:56 am »
    I think its very fair and right to say that a high powered car is not very useable on the roads. No real point in having a car that can do 200 mph when the speed limit is 70. Its also reckless and stupid to be bombing around on city streets putting people in danger. However there is no law that states how quickly a car can get upto the speed limit as long as its done in a controlled way. So accelerating down a slip road onto a motorway or coming off a roundabout onto a bypass. The main advantages are when driving on B roads or in the countryside passing slower traffic. The more grunt your car has the less time you are exposed to danger. This means you dont have to sit there waiting for large gaps while getting frustrated. So I personally think power can be used in certain situations without losing your licence or putting yourself or others in danger.

    The Colt Ralliart is a great car but the baby Evo X looks are marmite. Not only that but the interior is truly shocking. But regardless the Colt shouldnt be mentioned in the same breath as the APE because its in a lower class. The small city car segment (Colt,Swift,Twingo) is expertly covered by the 500 and 595. The full size hatchback (Golf,Focus,Astra,Megane) is covered by the Alfa Romeo Giulietta Cloverleaf. But that leaves a big hole in the junior hatchback (Fiesta,Corsa,Polo,Clio) market that Fiat just arent filling. Like I said its a shame that Fiat didn't give the Abarth Puntos more bite and as a result more identity. The only reason why somebody would buy a Punto over a 500 is because you either really dont like the 500 or that the 500 doesnt have enough space which is why I bought one. Compare the Polo to the Golf,the Astra to the Corsa,the Clio to the Megane and the Fiesta to the Focus. All the top sports models have a clear defining line that the bigger car has a larger engine and better performance. Thats the way it has always been. The APE is a stunning car and its such a shame that Fiat didnt maximise the full potential of the car.

    Offline Simon-bp

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    Re: Money No Object Tuning
    « Reply #17 on: April 15, 2014, 10:14:15 am »
    What did happen to the Alfa MiTo GTA??  It was touted as having the 235bhp 1750 turbo engine and going on sale in the UK in 2009 for £18000. 
    I think that with it's success FIAT now see the future as 500 shaped.

    Offline FullMetalScorpion

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    Re: Money No Object Tuning
    « Reply #18 on: April 15, 2014, 05:09:10 pm »
    Well with the new Punto being a 4 door 500, Fiats future is definitely going to be 500 or Panda shaped. Thats one of the reasons why I bought an APE now. The 500 is a great car but its just too small for me. So I took my chance to get a new APE while I still could. Its unlikely I will buy a Fiat or Abarth again because the future models dont interest me. Even if Abarth launch a little 2 seater spider it wont be right for me.

    Back on the money no object theme im pretty sure  I read somewhere that the 500 Tributo Ferrari model is also fitted with the 1.4 multiair.I wonder if it would be possible to fit the flappy paddle gearbox onto an APE. It would obviously be horrendously expensive and maybe impossible but I would like to see somebody try it. 

    Offline will-w

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    Re: Money No Object Tuning
    « Reply #19 on: April 15, 2014, 05:18:50 pm »
    In the UK all 500 models (Tributo or not) are powered by the T-Jet.

    The Ferrari and Masterati cars use the Garrett GT1446 turbo - they're effectively an Abarth Grande Punto Esseesse, just with a different gearbox
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    Offline stealth

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    Re: Money No Object Tuning
    « Reply #20 on: April 15, 2014, 07:15:58 pm »

    I'll do an airbag suspension conversion so the car will be slammed at shows / events

    Offline sandys

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    Re: Money No Object Tuning
    « Reply #21 on: April 15, 2014, 08:09:16 pm »
    The gearbox does seem to be a very weak link and a big hinderence on performance. A lot of cars like the Fiesta ST have the same amount of power as a Supersport or SS but a much faster 0 to 60 time. I know it was mentioned in another post that the gearbox is the reason for the relatively slow (in class) 0 to 60 time of the Abarth Puntos. So increasing the horse power maybe pointless anyway if that doesnt translate into faster acceleration on the road


     ??? The gearbox is not a weak link for performance, it is probably quite key in getting such flexible performance from the car out of the box, its a decent set of ratios that keep the turbo on the boil nicely and keep what is a fairly heavy car moving at some pace, the change is slick, does it effect 0-60, yes, but it has plenty of benefits, just depends on what you want, does it make more horse power pointless, of course not, big horse power is great for high speeds, at high speed you have already gone through the short stuff, gearbox is fine.

    Im certainly not a fan of Top Gear magazine but their review of the APE is interesting. The reviewer basically summed up the car as best being seen not as a hot hatch but as a mini GT car and maybe thats how Abarth intended it to be. I always found it strange that in the 2 car stable of Abarth that the smaller car has a 1.4 and the bigger car also has a 1.4. I cant think of any other  case where this has happened before. The Abarth Puntos would have faired better if given their own identity by Fiat and fitted with bigger 1.8 or 1.6 engines and obviously a better gearbox. Maybe pushing out 180 bhp as standard and upto 200 on the ss models and going for a 0 to 60 time of just under 7 seconds. The trouble then would be that they would ask more for the car and as a result I couldnt afford one anyway. So im in danger of breaking my own rules and saying that an engine and box swap would be the best option. Or even as Sandy pointed out get another car.

    They don't need bigger engines for identity, the way they are tuned is enough, plenty of car adopt similar approaches, the identity is different, a 500 does not drive like a punto and vice versa.

    Quote from: juggler
    I think we get suckered into comparisons with other cars, which kind of ends up as "pub bragging rights", and is as pointless as a 0-60 time. A car is much more than a Bhp figure, or 0-60 time. If I wanted as much power as the Clio, I would have bought one. I didn't want a Renault, I wanted something different, something interesting.

    Indeed, I bought the APE on looks and reasonable performance, in my weekend use I have competed against all manner of better vehicle and come out vctorious 8) but at the same time I have lost events to the likes of a 1.4 Corsa or even worse a 1.3 micra, power is not the be all and end all, it's not what you've got but whether you know how to use it ;D I'm still learning. :whistle:

    Quote from: fullmetalscorpion
    The only reason why somebody would buy a Punto over a 500 is because you either really dont like the 500 or that the 500 doesnt have enough space

    No...just, No. ::)

    Quote from: fullmetalscorpion
    I wonder if it would be possible to fit the flappy paddle gearbox onto an APE. It would obviously be horrendously expensive and maybe impossible but I would like to see somebody try it. 

    Again, No...just, No.  ;D


    Offline FullMetalScorpion

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    Re: Money No Object Tuning
    « Reply #22 on: April 15, 2014, 09:24:03 pm »
    Well you say the gearbox isnt a weak point. But I would say having to use third to get to 60 isnt ideal. Obviously a 6 speed box is better for economy but I would prefer a longer range. 0 to 60 times arent the whole story but they obviously translate to how quickly a car accelerates. And personally im not interested at all in high speeds for me its all about acceleration.

    If the 500 (with it being a small car) has a 1.4 then it would be a natural progression for the Punto to have a bigger engine. I just dont see the point in having a 2 car stable where both cars have the same size engine and basically the same performance. It would have made more sense to give the Punto its own identity by giving it a bigger engine and better performance. To market it as the bigger and best performing Abarth. To give it the tools needed to take the fight to the VXR's and ST's. You have said figures dont mean everything and that the APE performs admirably against other hot hatches. Yet unfortunately,rightly or wrongly cars are graded on their performance figures and in this regard the APE is outclassed. Those figures are fine for a lightweight little city car like the 500. But for the next class size up its not enough. The APE is going to the races on its little brother's bike. The APE is an awesome car with jaw dropping looks with that unmistakable Italian flair for design. But if Fiat had given it a bit more attention and developed it more it could have been unbelievablely successful.

    Instead of just saying no,why dont you say why you bought an APE. I agree that flappy paddles arent always appealing. Plenty of criticism has been leveled at the new Clio Sport for having them. Yet that car still shifts so they obviously work. I would just be interested to see how a flappy paddle gearbox on an APE would perform and see what effect it has on performance.

    Offline sandys

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    Re: Money No Object Tuning
    « Reply #23 on: April 15, 2014, 10:42:19 pm »
    ...

    Offline Simon-bp

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    Re: Money No Object Tuning
    « Reply #24 on: April 15, 2014, 11:04:15 pm »
    It is often high torque that destroys gearboxes. I have read that someone with a tuned APE needed a new diff after 47000 miles. Personally I don't think that the ratios are particularly well chosen for performance, irrespective of 0-60 figures or whether they are operated mechanically or electronically via a single or dual clutch. First gear is the lowest I've known other than on my mountain bike!

    Offline sandys

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    Re: Money No Object Tuning
    « Reply #25 on: April 16, 2014, 11:51:25 am »
    your both still focussed on 0-60, plenty of cars don't hit 60 in second, some of these are very quick cars, some of the high power rally favourites like the Impreza Type RA and Lancer RS, its about having the right ratio to shift the car and being able to fire the thing out of hairpins etc, not straight line drag you both seem to like, sound like you've bought the wrong car.  :whistle:

    Where do you feel the car lets you down? how many times have you found yourself sitting there waiting for the lag, do you find problems when changing where the car is not in the zone as in 3 yrs I can't say I have, that is the point, if you do you may have an issue? first does feel short I moaned myself initially but at the same time its not a revvy engine, it does not have high low down torque, try taking off in 2nd, the car is not really up for it, a longer first will increase loadings similarly.

    I've not read of a diff failure on a 653 I'd be interested to see that, I certainly had to replace a DMF at similar mileage but then if you consider this weekend I did 24 hard standing starts and do that a few times a month, I cut the car some slack, blimey do launches like that in a GTR you would void your warranty with Nissan.

    My brother in law who double drove my car for an event this weekend who likes his hot fords and his VAG products got in my car and his first comment was 'wow that's a slick box' and it is, it's got quick and precise changes.

    Offline will-w

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    Re: Money No Object Tuning
    « Reply #26 on: April 16, 2014, 12:15:05 pm »
    I'm with Sandy - in the real world 0-62 times mean nothing.

    The only thing all of these figures (0-62, BHP, torque) is good at is Happy Hour top trumps down your local :)

    The APE comes into it's own in 2nd & 3rd gear, with 4th and even 5th in close second.  If you know how to drive the car quickly then it can be devilishly quick on a country lane, in fact I'd be surprised if many standard cars could give it a run for its money.
    « Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 12:16:45 pm by will-w »
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    Offline Simon-bp

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    Re: Money No Object Tuning
    « Reply #27 on: April 16, 2014, 04:32:43 pm »
    I have no interest in 0-60(62) times and never have been! The question was asked as to what could be done to the APE if money was no object and my argument was that reliability was the limiting factor. If you have a "slick" gearbox then you should be very pleased as mine certainly isn't! However the car with TMC box, induction kit, G-tech exhaust suits me just fine.

    Offline FullMetalScorpion

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    Re: Money No Object Tuning
    « Reply #28 on: April 16, 2014, 06:05:04 pm »
    Fair play to Will,Sandy and anybody else not interested in 0 to 60 times. We all use our cars differently and it would be impossible for a manufacturer to build a car that satisfied everybody in every situation.

    The vast majority of my driving is done in a city where I only do 30 or 40 mph. About once a fortnight I go to see family which involves driving on a bypass at 60. I very rarely do any motorway driving at all. Living on the doorstep of the peaks I do love driving out on country roads. However ive seen that many accidents or close calls that im always very cautious. So to me low end grunt and acceleration are all that matters because thats all I use.

    Offline sandys

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    Re: Money No Object Tuning
    « Reply #29 on: April 16, 2014, 06:28:46 pm »
    So when you are driving on those lovely roads on the peaks or on these 30/40 mph roads do you grind to a halt and try to accelerate to 60 at every opportunity, surely that down right annoying/dangerous for any one on the road behind you  :P , surely best to use the grunt the engine has and accelerate in 3rd?  ;D

    I'm not saying the box is perfect, I had cars with much better changes, but its not bad, one of the things I was looking at is a change of final drive, as there are options out there, from cars with the same family box but do 60 in second which would help your case and mine for Autosolo where courses tend to top out at 60 and snatching 3rd loses me time, in addition it would drop the revs in 6th by a few hundred rpm leading to a more economical commuter for me, as you say, you could also loose the box entirely and put something else in, money no object anything is possible.

    if your box is not feeling slick, drop out the fluid and do a fresh fill with something decent, its quite sensitive to fluid, it should be good, with nice changes, excepting when cold, I don't think you can find a review on the internet that doesn't comment on how slick Fiat/Alfas 6 spd box is in the various models, don't just put up with it, take it to dealer.
    « Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 06:30:36 pm by sandys »

     

    hungry